作者：向杨
微博：向杨Alan
微信公众号：xy88chicago
华盛顿的政界，有两类谋士。一类是帮助竞选的，所谓的Hack， ； 一类则是胜选后帮助政策制定的，所谓的Wonk。前者常常活跃在公众视野，竞选团队的动向备受关注。而后者却显得默默无闻，伏案起草重要法案。以美国大学校园打个比方，这些竞选团队的“Hack”类似校园里擅长体育、四肢发达、极度自信、受女生欢迎的男生，英文中叫Jock；而长期在幕后制定政策的“Wonk”则类似校园里爱专研书本知识、主要从事脑力活动、对流行文化不感兴趣的书呆子，英文叫Nerd。
布鲁斯·里德（Bruce Reed）则更偏向后者。他1982年毕业于普林斯顿大学，获得罗德奖学金（Rhode Scholarship），赴牛津大学攻读英国文学。1985-1989年期间，他为后来的副总统戈尔（Al Gore）做演讲稿主笔；1992年他担任克林顿-戈尔竞选副总管；1996年，他为克林顿起草福利改革《个人责任和工作机会调整法》，将1300万领取现金的穷人人数减少到300万；2011至2013年，他担任副总统拜登（Joe Biden）的幕僚长（Chief of Staff）。美联社（Associate Press）曾用这四个词来形容布鲁斯·里德：低调、谦逊、随和、儒雅 （understated， self-effacing， non-threatening， refreshingly old-fashioned）。专访中的他，完整诠释了这四个形容词。
羊说共两次专访。第一次（2016.10.20）涉及到副总统拜登其人、华盛顿的政策制定谋士、竞选和治理之间的平衡、演讲稿的写作；第二次专访发生在川普大选胜出的第二天（2016.11.9），话题涉及川普执政后，奥巴马医保方案、移民问题、媒体公信力以及全球气候变暖议题的走向。
专访一
专访二
专访一
Bruce Reed
Interviewed 10/20/2016
Duration： 16：52
BRUCE： Hi， how are you？
布鲁斯：你好。
YANG： Nice meeting you。
羊：你好。
BRUCE： Thanks for coming in。
布鲁斯：感谢前来。
YANG： I‘m so happy to meet you。 So you work for Vice President Joe Biden。 Actually， in 2011， he went to Sichuan， China—
羊：见到你我很开心。你为副总统乔·拜登工作。2011年，他去了中国成都。
BRUCE： Uh-huh， I remember， yeah。
布鲁斯：嗯，我记得这个。
YANG： Oh great。 I was in Sichuan University at the time。
羊：很棒，我那时在四川大学读书。
BRUCE： Oh， you were？
布鲁斯：是嘛！
YANG： I was in undergrad， at the time。 He went there—probably his first visit [BRUCE： Yeah。] in the western part of China and one of my friends actually asked a question [BRUCE： Really？] at the Q&A session。 I wasn‘t in the room [BRUCE： Uh-huh。] but I heard a lot about that visit。
羊：我那时在读本科。拜登来四川，可能是他首次来访中国西部地区 [布鲁斯：是的。]，我的一位朋友当时在问答环节中提了一个问题 [布鲁斯：哦？] 我当时不在现场，[布鲁斯：嗯。]，不过我后来听到了很多关于那次来访的事。
BRUCE： He talks about that all the time。
布鲁斯：拜登时常提起那次访问。
YANG： I think he started talking about his granddaughters learning Chinese for several years and they talked about some interesting stuff about China to him。
羊：我想他是提到了自己的孙女们学习了几年中文，他们分享给拜登一些中国有趣的东西。
BRUCE： That‘s interesting。 Isn’t that where he said something about the one-child policy—isn‘t that where he got in trouble for saying something about that？ I thought so。 Maybe not。 Maybe it was later in the trip。
布鲁斯：很有意思。他是不是在那儿还谈了中国的独生子女政策，说他在说道这件事时遇到了些麻烦？我想是，但也可能我记错了，可能是他之后的行程里碰到的。
YANG： But he also talked about the earthquake in 2008。 [BRUCE： Oh yeah。] That was like two years after the tragic earthquake。 He addressed lots of stuff， primarily on US-China relations。
羊：不过他还提到了2008年的大地震。[布鲁斯：是的。] 当时好像是那场灾难后的第三年，他演讲中提到了很多东西，尤其是中美关系方面的。
BRUCE： That‘s great。
布鲁斯：很棒。
YANG： Yeah， so I thought you might have been working with him at the time in 2011。
羊：是的，我以为2011年，当时你和他在一起工作。
BRUCE： Yeah， I was。 I didn‘t go on that trip， but I’ve heard his stories。
布鲁斯：我当时是和他在一起。那次中国之旅我没去，不过我读了相关的报道。
YANG： I‘ve got several questions on my computer。 Maybe I will start with an interesting one。 So when you were Vice President Joe Biden’s Chief of Staff， the Associate Press wrote about you [LAUGHTER] using several adjectives： understated， self-effacing， non-threatening， refreshingly old-fashioned。 You might be embarrassed by those words， but—[LAUGHTER] So is that a typical image of a policy wonk in Washington [LAUGHTER] and you know， I knew a little bit about Joe Biden‘s personality， his kind of free-wheeling， and unrehearsed [BRUCE： Yeah。]， very-driven kind of guy。 I heard his speech in the Democratic National Convention [BRUCE： Uh-huh。]， he was like a coach [LAUGHTER]， a drill master。 So how does your style interact with Joe Biden’s personality？
羊：我这次来有几个问题想请教你。我想我就先问一个有趣的吧。你还是副总统拜登的幕僚长时，美联社（注：美国历史最悠久、规模最大的通讯社，前身是1848年成立的港口新闻联合社，由6家纽约日报为对付日益激烈的新闻竞争而建立。）用了这样几个词来形容你：低调、谦逊、随和、儒雅。你听到这些词，可能会有些尴尬，但 [笑] 这就是人们对华盛顿那些政策专家的印象吗？[笑] 我对拜登的性格多少有点了解，他是那种随心所欲、即席而做、很好强的人。我听过他今年在民主党大会上的讲话，[布鲁斯：嗯。] 他就像一个教练，一位军队教官。那你这种风格的人如何与拜登那种性格互动呢？
BRUCE： That‘s a good—that’s a great question。 I don‘t know—well， he’s certainly not typical。 He‘s one of a kind， there aren’t many like him。 I think it is—it‘s helpful if you’re advising someone powerful， to not have a big ego about it。 So it‘s useful to be self-effacing， if that’s possible。 You know， some people are and some people aren‘t， and you don’t have to be。 I think it‘s—but I think there’s an old saying you‘ve probably seen： “there’s no limit to what you can get done in Washington if you don‘t care who gets the credit。” [YANG： Mhm。] And that is—that’s probably true in other walks of life as well。 If you‘re focused on getting things done， you don’t really—you don‘t mind if other people think it’s their idea。 People are always more excited if it‘s their idea—or if they think it’s their idea。 [LAUGHS] So Biden—we worked well together。 He‘s a proud man， but knows his own shortcomings and the vice presidency is a very humbling job， because， you know， everybody’s always making jokes about it， you‘re never the number one guy， you get to go to funerals， you don’t get to give the State of the Union。 So he was able to laugh about that and see the virtues of the job anyway， but he doesn‘t take himself too seriously。
布鲁斯：这个问题很好。我也说不太清。拜登他当然很特别，他那种人并不多见。我觉的，你给一个握有大权的人工作，如果不过分自我，会很有帮助。所以，如果可以的话，那么谦逊一点是很好的。有的人谦逊，有的人就傲一些，但你没必要。我想你可能也听过一句古话：只要你不介意谁最后受到表彰，那你在华盛顿就能做到任何事。（注：第四十任美国总统罗纳德·里根的名言）[羊：嗯。] 这句话可能也适用于生活中的其他领域。如果你关注点在于把事情做成，你就不会在意其他人会不会觉得你用了他们的想法。人们看到别人用了自己的想法或者认为别人用了自己的想法时，总是很激动。[笑] 我和拜登在一起工作得很好。他有点傲娇，但是知道自己的缺点。当副总统，自尊心就不能太强，因为每天人们都会开副总统的玩笑，副总统永远也成不了头号人物。副总统要去出席葬礼，而不是去发表国情咨文（注：总统向国会发表的年度报告，它是美国政府的施政纲领，主要阐明美国总统每年面临的国内外情况，以及政府将要采取的政策措施）。所以副总统拜登能够对这些一笑了之，并且看到这份工作阳光的一面。同时，不太把自己当回事。
YANG： All right。 Is self-effacing， non-threatening image what today‘s Washington policy wonk is about？
羊：没错。那么谦逊、随和的形象是不是当今华盛顿政策研究者的标配？
BRUCE： Not really。
布鲁斯：不完全是。
YANG： Or are you just one exception？
羊：那你是个特例？
BRUCE： Oh， you know， there are—in any profession [YANG： Mhm。]， people who are strong-willed and ambitious tend to rise to the top。 But that‘s not the only way， and there are—I think there are probably a lot of people in Washington—in staff jobs—who are more comfortable being the man behind the curtain than they would be being out there on stage。 And I’m definitely that way。 I mean， I don‘t mind—I’m not shy， but I don‘t care that much about what other people think of me， so it’s， you know， I don‘t know， I wish it were typical [YANG： Yeah。] but， you know， Americans are pretty full of themselves， so it’s not。。。[LAUGHS]
布鲁斯：嗯，你看，在任何领域， 那种很有野心、很有抱负的人，更容易爬到最顶层。但这不是全部。我觉得在华盛顿，可能还有很多人，这些管理人员，比起上台演出，他们更喜欢做幕后工作。我肯定就是这种类型。我是说，我不介意。我并不害羞，但是我也不太在意别人怎么看我，所以，我也说不上来。[羊：嗯。] 我希望谦逊随和是这类工作的常态，但是美国人相对比较自负，所以并不是…[笑]
YANG： [LAUGHS] Yeah， that‘s unique about you。 So yesterday， I wrote a paper on party realignment [BRUCE： Oh， wow。]， trying to understand the past five or six party system and the possible realignment [BRUCE： Wow。] after this year’s critical election， whether it‘s critical or not， whether it will be realignment in the next few cycles。 And I read a name—Sidney Blumenthal [BRUCE： Uh-huh。] is being mentioned several times by Donald Trump [LAUGHTER]， and he actually popularized the phrase， “permanent campaign。” [BRUCE： Uh-huh。] That’s a thing I read about， it describes official campaigning for re-election throughout the electoral cycle [BRUCE： Yeah。]， leaving no time when they can focus exclusively on governing。 So what do you think of this permanent campaign， if it‘s the case—what are the cost and benefits in terms of policy-making for the president？
羊：[笑] 是的。你这一点很独特。昨天，我写了篇关于“政党选民重新组合”的论文 [布鲁斯：哦，很棒！] 我试着理解以前的五次或六次的重组，以及今年这场关键的大选可能形成的重组，比如这次的选举算不算关键的选举，或者在接下来的选举中，会不会有选民重组。（注：“政党选民重组选举”（realigning election），指的是“在一系列选举中出现了新的政党选民联盟和投票模式，从而从根本上改变了国家政治和公共政策的进程”。“关键性选举”通常发生在美国政治发展的主要转捩点，公民稳定的政党忠诚与作为基础的不断变化的社会和经济条件之间的冲突是“关键性选举”发生的主要原因。美国五次关键性选举1800年总统选举，杰弗逊的民主共和党战胜联邦党，导致联邦党被拋弃，是为第一政党体系；1828年杰克逊的民主党战胜辉格党，开始了民主党占主导地位时期，直到1860年共和党的林肯赢得大选，为第二政党体系；1860年林肯当选总统后，共和党上升为全国性大党，开始了第三政党体系；1896年总统选举，共和党候选人麦金莱战胜民主党和第三党—平民党候选人赢得大选，开创了第四政党体系；1932年大选，罗斯福的民主党战胜共和党，开始了第五政党体系）我读到一个人，希尼·布鲁门萨，多次被唐纳德·川普提到过。（注：川普多次在公开场合，否认自己是奥巴马出生在肯尼亚的阴谋论制造者，并试图将罪魁祸首转移到希拉里的顾问希尼·布鲁门萨身上）[布鲁斯：嗯。] [笑] 这个人让一个说法变火了，就是“竞选活动永不停息”。[布鲁斯：嗯。] 我读的就是和这个相关的，它描述了在整个竞选周期中，候选人为了连任，不停地筹办选举活动。[布鲁斯：嗯。] 这导致他们没时间特别关注治理方面的问题。你怎么看这个“竞选活动永不停息”？如果事实就是如此的话，对于总统本人，在政策制定方面，有何利弊？
BRUCE： Great question。 I think one of the， you know， problems with our system is that a lot elected officials never really have a chance to stop campaigning。 Members of the House of Representatives have to be raising money all the time， have to be thinking about their campaign。 They run every two years， so they never really get to take a breath and focus on governing。 I think that a lot of people in politics aren‘t too—spend too much time worrying about that， that they forget why they came there in the first place。 Different presidents handle it different ways。 I think there’s—it‘s not really—when you’re inside， it doesn‘t feel like a permanent campaign。 You always have to be [YANG： Mhm。] making your argument， but it doesn’t have to be， you know， that can be—you have to do your best to win the argument about whatever issues are in front of the country at that time。 But it‘s not all about the election。 It doesn’t have to be。 [YANG： Mhm。] You know， interestingly， we have， I guess， the longest campaigns of any nation—
布鲁斯：很好的问题。我觉得，我们国家体制的一个问题就是，许多由选举产生的官员从未真正有机会停止竞选活动。众议院的成员们时时刻刻都在筹钱，时时刻刻都在思考自己的竞选活动。他们每两年就要竞选一次，所以他们从来都没时间喘口气，停下来想想治理方面的问题。我觉得，很多政界人士都太——花了太多时间担心竞选的事，都忘记的自己当初为什么要来这里竞选了。不同的总统有不同的行事作风。我想，当你置身其中时，其实并不会感受到永不停息的竞选运动。你得一直 [羊：嗯。] 阐述自己的论点，你得尽全力让别人认清当前国家面临的各种问题。但选举不等于这一切，也没必要等于这一切。[羊：嗯。] 有趣的是，我猜，我们国家的竞选活动是所有国家中最耗时间的。
YANG： Yeah， most complicated system。
羊：是的，最复杂的体制。
BRUCE： —by a factor of five， probably。
布鲁斯：竞选花掉的时间可能是其他国家的五倍
YANG： Whoa。
羊：天呐
BRUCE： And everybody hates it。 The candidates hate it， the voters really hate it。 [YANG： Mhm。] The best thing a president or an elected official can do to become more popular is to campaign less。 And when Bill Clinton ran for re-election in 1996， he really only campaigned about two months。 We had a Rose Garden strategy—just keep governing as long as you can get away with it， and because that‘s what the country actually wants， and once you get out there on the campaign trail， you know， it sinks to a lower level of discourse。
布鲁斯：人人对此都有怨言。参选人抱怨，投票人也抱怨。[羊：嗯。] 一个总统或是一个选举出的官员能做的最好的事，就是减少竞选活动。比尔·克林顿1996年竞选连任时，只搞了两个月。我们弄了个“玫瑰花园战略”——治理的时间能有多长就争取有多长，因为国家所需要的就是如此；一旦再次踏上竞选活动之路，话语的档次就要降低了。（注：白宫玫瑰花园毗邻椭圆形办公室，位于白宫西翼。“玫瑰花园战略”指现任总统面临连任时，选择在白宫忙于政务，而不是到全国各地拉票，以此显示自己才是白宫的主人，而其他竞选者只是局外人。）
YANG： A little bit of a comparison between Obama and Bill Clinton， because I read some advertisement or news that Bill Clinton is going lots of places for fundraising [BRUCE： Wow。] recently to Chicago among Chinese-Americans。
羊：稍微比较一下奥巴马和比尔·克林顿。我读到过一则广告还是新闻，说比尔·克林顿经常去各地募款，[布鲁斯：哦。] 好像最近去了芝加哥的华人社区为希拉里竞选筹资。
BRUCE： Oh， really？
布鲁斯：哦？是吗？
YANG： Yeah， so he went to an event with all Chinese-Americans around。 [BRUCE： Really？] So who is more like， campaigning permanently？ [LAUGHTER] Can you share some details？
羊：是的。他参加了一个活动，很多美籍华人都在他身旁。[布鲁斯：哦？] 那克林顿和奥巴马二人谁更喜欢永不停息地搞竞选活动呢？[笑] 你能详细讲讲吗？
BRUCE： You know， Obama doesn‘t really enjoy politics but he does like to campaign。 He likes getting out of Washington [YANG： Mhm。]， he likes speaking to crowds。 I don’t know how he feels about， you know， going to fundraisers to speak to potential donors。 I think that they‘re alike in that regard。 They’re both really good out on the campaign side of things， so they‘re on the stump， and they both like it a lot。 I think Clinton likes the kind of one-on-one part of it more than Obama does。 Obama likes a crowd， but doesn’t really like shaking everybody‘s hand。 He’ll do it if he has to， but he‘s not—whereas Clinton and Biden want to， you know， they want to close the sale with every person。 They want to make—if there’s somebody out there who‘s not for them yet， they want to keep trying to talk them into it。 That’s unusual and probably has some deep psychological reason。
布鲁斯：奥巴马其实对政治并不怎么上心，但他的确喜欢搞竞选活动。他喜欢去华盛顿之外的地方。[羊：嗯。] 他喜欢对人群讲话。我不知道他在对那些可能捐款的人讲话时是怎么想的。我想他们二人在这个方面是一样的。他们都很擅长搞选举方面的事，所以他们搞一些巡回演说，也很喜欢这么做。我觉得克林顿比奥巴马更喜欢那种一对一游说形式。奥巴马更喜欢面对人群演讲，但却不怎么爱和大家握手，非得握时才会握。而克林顿和拜登，他们想说服每一个人。他们想的是，如果有人不愿意支持他们，那他们就会持续说服这个人。这挺不寻常的，可能有一些深层次的心理原因。
YANG： I may have several questions。 But I want to ask this question first because I also teach some students back in China， so they learn from me about speech， about speech-writing。 [BRUCE： Uh-huh。] You served as speech-writer for Al Gore back in the 1980s。 So what is your experience in writing a good speech？ [LAUGHTER] Could you share some of your recipes for good speech-writing？
羊：我还有几个问题，但先问这一个。因为我回中国的时候，我会教一些学生，他们跟我学习演讲，学写演讲稿。[布鲁斯：嗯。] 你之前曾在80年代辅佐过阿尔·戈尔（注：第四十五任美国副总统Al Gore），帮他写演讲稿。那你在写好演讲稿方面有什么心得呢？[笑] 能不能分享一些写好演讲稿的诀窍呢？
BRUCE： [LAUGHS] That‘s a great question。 Well， speeches are different from other kinds of writing because they’re out loud。 I was always taught that even for when you‘re writing a paper， it’s a good idea to read it out loud to yourself， because you can edit better if you hear how it sounds。 But that‘s definitely true with speeches， that they’re not—they‘re designed， in part， to interact with and get a response from the audience， and there’s lots of things that become， like any kind of conversation， if you‘re writing an essay， you can have very long sentences， and they can have lots of clauses。 And people—
布鲁斯：[笑] 很好的问题。演讲稿和其他形式的写作不一样，因为演讲稿是用来大声念的。我之前一直学到的就是，即便我写的是论文，我也最好能把它大声的念给自己，因为当你听到之后，你便能把它修改得更好。这当然对演讲稿就更加适用了。演讲稿本身就从某种程度上意味着要和现场听众互动，要从他们那里得到反响。有很多方面和任何形式的对话一样。如果你写的是论说文或散文，你可以用很多长句子，这些句子里有很多从句。
YANG： Where would you find the inspiration？ Like， you know， I learned from Bob Dylan， he wrote some lyrics by flipping through some local newspapers [LAUGHTER]， finding something interesting to use。 So where would your inspiration come from？
羊：那你怎么找到灵感呢？比如，我听说鲍勃·迪伦，他写一些歌词时，灵感来自他翻各地的本地报纸 [笑]，翻的时候找一些有趣的东西拿来用。那你的灵感来自哪里呢？
BRUCE： The best way to learn how to write speeches—like when I started writing speeches， I had never written a speech。 And the best way is to read great speeches or watch great speeches because I think it is—there‘s a rhythm to it that is， I’m sure， you know， Dylan found the same thing with lyrics。 But there‘s a—it’s like spoken poetry and getting a sense of what—you know， if you‘re writing a play， you have to have a picture in your head of how the characters are going to act when they’re saying those words and when someone‘s giving a speech， they’re not just reading it—it won‘t go very well if they’re just reading it out loud。 [YANG： Mhm。] They have to bring it to life。 And so you can—and to give an example of， you know， one of the things you have to learn to write in political speeches is how to write an applause line， how to write a sentence that will get the crowd to respond。 And there‘s a particular rhythm to that。 There’s a—the speaker has to kind of let the audience know that it‘s time to applaud。 And they do that by raising their voice， or by， you know， having a—building to a crescendo。 For normal speeches， in day-to-day life， like if you’re going to speak at a conference， you don‘t need to worry as much about that。 But it is—it’s still instructive to think about it from the listener‘s standpoint of—you know， it doesn’t mean you have to make it dumber， but it does need to be clear， because things that are clear on the page are not always clear when you say them out loud。
布鲁斯：学写演讲稿，最好是，比如我开始写演讲稿时，我其实从未写过。最好的方法是，去读那些伟大的演讲，或是收看伟大的演讲，因为我觉得，这些演讲里有一种韵律，这种韵律我相信和迪伦为写歌词而找到的是一样的。就像是有声音的诗歌，要有一种感觉，就好比你写剧本时，脑海里要勾勒出一幅图片，描绘演员们说出这些台词时他们要怎么表现。当某个人演讲时，他们不仅仅是在读演讲稿，因为只是读出声的话，演讲效果肯定不会好。[羊：嗯。] 他们得赋予演讲生命力。这样才行，举个例子，你在政治演讲稿撰写中要学会一件事，就是如何写出能引起掌声的句子，写出让听众能回应你的句子。这种都需要一种特别的韵律。演讲者多少得让听众知道，这里要来点掌声了，这时他们抬高自己的嗓音，或者逐渐进入演讲的高潮。对于常规的演讲，那种每天都会看到的，比如去某个会议上讲话，你不需要对此太过担心。但是，如果能从听众的角度去想想，还是很有启发的。并不是说，你要把演讲弄得傻瓜也能听懂，而是说要保证清楚明白。因为在纸上很清楚的事情，当大声说出来的时候，未必总是清楚的。
YANG： Thank you so much。
羊：非常感谢。
BRUCE： Oh yeah， it was great to meet you！
布鲁斯：不客气，很高兴见到你。
YANG： I‘m going to meet you next week。
羊：我下周还会来。
BRUCE： Thanks for coming by。
布鲁斯：欢迎你来。
YANG： I have some policy questions next week。
羊：我下周有几个政策方面的问题。
BRUCE： Oh， excellent！ Well， your questions are great。 The best I‘ve had。 Take care。 Have a good week。
布鲁斯：噢，很棒！你的问题都很赞，是我见过最好的。保重，周末愉快！
访谈二
（于2016.11.9日，即美国大选出结果的第二天早上）
Bruce Reed
Interviewed 11/9/2016
Duration： 27：42
YANG： What a night！ [LAUGHS]
羊：昨晚发生了太多事儿！[笑]（注：这次专访发生在2016年大选结束的第二天早上，头一天的结果让人惊讶，具有历史意义）
BRUCE： That‘s for sure。 Well， you always ask great questions， so I can’t wait to hear them！
布鲁斯：确实如此。上次你提的问题都太赞了，我迫不及待想听后面的问题。
YANG： So， I was supposed to ask several questions yesterday， but today， they should be totally changed。 [LAUGHTER] Yeah， I suppose that， you know， there might be gridlock since the Senate would be likely in the Republican‘s control。 But I didn’t expect that it would be a unified government now。
羊：嗯，我昨天本来要专访你的几个问题，今天这些问题都得彻底修改了。[笑] 我本想的是，共和党依然掌控参议院，民主党拿下白宫，于是政治僵局无法避免。但我没料到现在白宫、参众两院都被共和党把持，成了统一政府了。
BRUCE： Yeah。 Well， there‘ll still be gridlock。
布鲁斯：是的，但实际上还是会有政治僵局。
YANG： There will still be gridlock？
羊：还是会有？
BRUCE： I think so。 It‘s hard to get much done without 60 votes in the Senate。 Democrats can filibuster most of what Republicans will want to do。 Trump will be able to pass tax cuts if he wants to or other things that can use their special protections for certain measures。 He’ll be able to confirm and secure Supreme Court nominees， most likely。 [YANG： Uh-huh。] But I don‘t think he’ll be able to do everything he wants。 And certainly， well， he can do some damage to Obamacare probably that way。
布鲁斯：我觉得会有。如果在参议院得不到60票的话，很多情况下很难成事。民主党可以通过“程序性阻挠议事”否决共和党想做的多数事情。（注：根据美国参议院的现行章程，参议员可以通过冗长发言等方式阻碍一项提案得到表决，而100个席位的参议院中必须有60名议员现场提出制止，才能终结阻挠、恢复议事。由于绝大多数时候参议院在任何一项提案议定之前不得转入对下一项提案的讨论，因此一旦达不到制止阻挠议事所需的票数，前一项提案往往要被牺牲，以免耽误后面的议程。）如果川普想的话，他能通过减税法，或者利用共和党议事过程中的特殊保护达成其他事情。[羊：嗯。] 他能任命并通过最高法院的候选人，这一点基本没问题。但我不认为他能做成所有他想做的事。而且，他当然还可以通过这些方式对奥巴马医保造成伤害。
YANG： Yeah。 That‘s one of the questions。
羊：是的。这正是我想问的问题之一。
BRUCE： But his own party disagrees with him on some of the more controversial things he wants to do， so those won‘t go anywhere。
布鲁斯：不过对于一些川普想做、但又颇具争议的事，共和党与川普的意见并不统一，所以这些事也没有定数。
YANG： Yeah， I also heard that you actually helped Bill Clinton， in 1996， secure the welfare reform “to end welfare as we know it”， and also you bear lots of pressure from both the more progressive side and also the right side， the Republican， conservative pushback。 Yeah， I‘m thinking about Obamacare’s prospects， because at the very end of this campaign， Trump basically stuck to the line， talking about the premium rise in lots of states。 [BRUCE： Yeah。] And looking at the poll， still [a] majority of Americans are holding an unfavorable opinion of Obamacare。 So at this very juncture， it‘s quite easy for Trump to repeal Obamacare or replace it with Trumpcare or something。 [BRUCE： Mhm。] So what would be his interest to do？ Would it be a replacement or would it be a repealing of Obamacare？ Because definitely Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell are interested to repeal Obamacare， but Trump， according to his interview video， he was in favor of some sort of healthcare—it’s a big question。
羊：是的。我还看到你实际上辅佐过比尔·克林顿，在1996年的时候，帮他确保福利改革能“与我们熟知的福利告别”。（注：1995年美国有1300万人领取现金福利，克林顿改革后，人数降到了3百万）你当时也承受了许多压力，来自更激进的左派和共和党保守势力的反扑。我在想奥巴马医保的前景，因为本次大选接近尾声时，川普实际上坚持这条竞选方案，反复提及多州的医保金额都上涨了。[布鲁斯：嗯。] 如果看看民调的话，还是会发现大多数美国人对奥巴马医保持否定态度。（注：RCP在2016年上半年民调表明，有48.8%的人对奥巴马医持负面态度，39.2%持正面态度）所以在这个节骨眼上，川普能轻易地废除奥巴马医保，或者用“川普医保”还是其他的什么来替代奥巴马医保。[布鲁斯：嗯。] 川普想怎样呢？是要替换掉奥巴马医保还是直接废除？因为保罗·莱恩和米奇·麦康奈尔（注：两人都是共和党国会大佬，前者是众议员议长，后者是参议员多数党领袖）是铁定要废除奥巴马医保的，但是川普，从他的采访视频来看，是支持某种形式的医保方案的。这个问题值得思考。（注：川普在2009年，依然认为自己是民主党人）
BRUCE： Yeah， the challenge for them—they have spent so much time opposing Obamacare and they‘ve spent a lot of time talking about repealing it。 And they have now—they don’t really have a very deep agreement on what should take its place。 They know they can‘t just get rid of it because then people would just be mad about what’s been taken away from them。 So I think they will find—they will try to find the most popular ways to help it collapse。 It‘s complicated for them， because if they take benefits away from people， then people will say， “Hey， wait a minute， where are my benefits？” and they’ll want them back。 [YANG： Yeah。] It wouldn‘t take much to further destabilize the market and make the whole thing collapse， but then you got a bunch of insurance companies that are mad or losing a lot of money。 And they—I think they don’t want to end up at the end of whatever it is they do， having people want their Obamacare back。 So there are certain things that they could do that would be popular， easy to do。 They could take away the individual requirement that people buy it。 If they did that， then healthy people would stop buying it altogether and sick people would buy it， and insurance companies would stop offering it， where they charge phenomenal prices。 [YANG： Mhm。] It would collapse on its own。 They could cut the subsidies so that you still get them， but you don‘t get them when you’re further up the ladder。 There are parts of it that they could just abolish。 I don‘t know—they have a whole repeal or replacement plan that some of them have paid attention to。 I don’t think Trump has。 Trump seems to be—the interesting thing about him is， he doesn‘t like to do things that hurt。 Like he may do bad things， but he likes to do popular things。 So， you know， he’s against cutting Social Security， he‘s against—he’s irresponsible in lots of ways。 And he‘s against Obamacare because it’s unpopular。 But he‘s for guaranteeing coverage for people who have pre-existing conditions and so it’ll be interesting to see where he sorts out on that。 Oh， and the other thing that they could do， which is—I don‘t know exactly how they would do it， but since the Supreme Court ruling， states have had the—it’s been up to the states to decide whether to do Medicaid expansion or not。 Like they could cut that in some way， where right now， it‘s an appealing deal for states， because the Feds to pick up most of the cost。 They can change that percentage so that the states would decide， “Yeah， it’s not really in our interest。”
布鲁斯：是的，这对共和党来说是个挑战。他们花了很多时间抨击奥巴马医保，费了很多口舌讨论废除它。但是该用什么来替代奥巴马医保，他们目前却莫衷一是。他们清楚，不能说废除就废除，因为那样的话民众会抓狂的。所以我觉得他们会找到，试着找到最受民众欢迎的法子，让奥巴马医保自行坍塌。这对他们来说可不容易，因为倘若他们把民众的福利拿走，人们就会说，“等等，我的福利怎么没了？”人们就想要回福利。[羊：嗯。]之后用不了多久，市场就会进一步震荡，一切都会开始解体崩塌，然后就会有一大批保险公司陷入困境。我不认为这二人最终会停留在仅仅废除奥巴马医保上，这样人们就想要回医保。所以他们肯定能找一些大众愿意接受的方案，执行起来也容易。他们可以把个人强制（购买医保）拿掉。（注：更为常见的说法是individual mandate，“个人强制（购买医保）”要求所有美国人在2014年前购买医疗保险，否则将面临罚款。美国26个州和一个代表小型企业的组织表示，该法案违背了宪法。最高法院今年6月份裁决，并不违宪）如果他们这样做，那健康的人就不会再买了，生病的人才会买，这样一来保险公司就不会提供这种服务，因为保险费会猛涨。[羊：嗯。]这样自我解体就会发生。他们可以砍掉补贴，这样尽管你仍然能拿到补贴，但是往受保项目的边缘就拿不到了。他们可以直接废除奥巴马医保中的一些部分。具体我不太清楚——但共和党有构思出一些完整的废除或者替代奥巴马医保的方案。我觉得川普并没想出来。川普似乎，有趣的是，他不喜欢做伤人感情的事。他可能会做一些糟糕的事，但他一般喜欢做受欢迎的事。你也知道，他反对削减社会保障。他仅仅反对，但很多事上他都不负责。他也反对奥巴马医保，因为这东西不够火。但是，他却保证医保覆盖到有受保前隐性疾病（注：指在美国医保体系中，一个人在其医保生效前的病情。该病情所产生的费用不在医保的覆盖范围内）的人群。所以我很想看看他要怎么处理这件事。噢，还有，他们还能做点其他工作，虽然我不知道他们具体要怎么做，但是自从最高法院判决生效以来，各个州就可以独自决定要不要扩大医保范围。共和党政府也可以砍掉这部分补贴，毕竟当前来看，各州都很享受这种交易，因为主要是联邦政府买单。他们可以改变账单的支付比例，这样各州就得决定是否要扩大了。这些州可能会想：“这样缩减下来，就不太符合我们州的利益了。”
YANG： It‘s interesting that Trump has this popularity line， but when it comes to comprehensive immigration reform， I think it will be more dire because this time， I think it has to do with some sort of white nationalism， there are more white working-class people voting for him and also gender is not a [BRUCE： Mhm。] a big issue， if you look at the polling， it’s like Trump has a very solid support from older women， white women。 So would there be a deportation on the part of Republican—
羊：很有趣，川普一直有这种迎合大众的特点。但是说到全面的移民改革时，我觉得就不容乐观了。因为这次大选，我觉得掀起了一种白人至上主义。如果看看民调的话，很多工薪阶层的白人给川普投票，性别都不是显著因素了，[布鲁斯：嗯。]好像大龄白人女性特别挺川普。共和党会不会大规模遣返非法移民呢——
BRUCE： I don‘t think so。 Well， I mean， Homeland Security brought—the immigration authorities already do a lot of， you know， do a lot more deportation than Obama wanted。 Obama was trying to slow that down， Trump will speed that up。 But that’s more for—that‘s aimed at—
布鲁斯：我想不会。我是说，国土安全局——移民局已经做了很多工作，遣返的人数比奥巴马预期的还要多很多。奥巴马曾试图减缓这种遣返力度，川普则会加大力度。但这更多的是为了，旨在——
YANG： That‘s not popular， I think。 [LAUGHS]
羊：遣返非法移民不够火，我想。[笑]
BRUCE： Well， deporting—deporting criminals is still popular。 But deporting ordinary people is not。 And doing that on a large scale—would there be a real backlash？ I think it would create some serious foreign policy complications for Trump。 It‘s a lot easier to say we’re going to get tough on the border， we‘re gonna stop more people from coming in， we’re gonna build a wall or pretend to build a wall or whatever。 But， when you say we‘re gonna take ordinary people here， send them home， you have problems here where that scares the hell out of a lot of people into a lot of sad stories。 And then you send them off to， you know， a country that often， they left for a reason。 There’s not a lot of countries that are glad to have them back。 So， I think that‘s a—I think he’ll do a lot of talking and then [LAUGHTER] maybe he‘ll build a wall， but I think he’ll make it harder to get in。 That will be—I don‘t think he could ever get away with like a round-up， where the authorities went and found people who had been here a while。 But people who come in， who get caught coming in， sending them back—he’ll probably get away with that。
布鲁斯：呃，遣返——遣返非法移民中的罪犯份子还是会受到欢迎的。但是遣返普通人却不会。而且如果大规模的遣返普通人，可能都会适得其反吧？我想这会导致川普在对外政策方面遇到更多困难。动动嘴谁也会说我们要在边境加强守卫，我们要阻止外人偷渡入境，我们要修墙，或假装要修墙等等。但是，如果你说我们要把普通人赶走，送他们回自己的国家，这样就会吓到很多人，造成很多悲剧。然后你把他们送回自己的国家，你也知道，他们当初肯定是因为什么才离开的。（注：比如逃避战争或政府迫害）并不是许多国家乐意看到这些人被送回来。我想，川普肯定会继续拿这个事多说几句，然后，[笑]可能他会修一堵墙，他会让入境变得困难。但我不认为他能够调动相关人员，将黑了一段时间的非法移民捕获并遣返。但是如果有人非法入境的时候被抓住了，那川普很可能就要送他们回去。
YANG： So lots of Chinese international students， they‘re very anxious about Trump’s promise to his base。 It‘s very complicated。 Some people worry about their H1B， some people even worry about OPT。 Trump still talks about welcoming very talented people from around the world， just fending off some illegal immigrants in his rhetoric， who are basically competing with white working-class jobs。 [BRUCE： Mhm。] So he’s now very clear about his immigration idea in this regard。 So what would be in his interest to—
羊：很多中国留学生，他们都很担心川普向他的选民承诺的东西。这个问题也很复杂。有些人担心自己的H1B不管用（注：特殊专业人员/临时工作签证，发放给美国公司雇佣的外国籍有专业技能的员工，属于非移民签证的一种。持有H1B签证者可以在美国工作3年，然后可以再延长3年，6年期满后如果签证持有者的身份没有转化，就必须离开美国），有些人甚至开始担心OPT也会受影响（注：专业实习，F1签证学生可以在毕业之后有1年的专业实习（Optional Practical Training）时间，简称OPT。如果国际生在毕业后60天内仍未申请到OPT，就必须离开美国）。川普依然在说欢迎世界各地的人才来美国，他只是要抵制非法移民，因为他们抢了白人工薪阶层的饭碗。[布鲁斯：嗯。] 川普目前在这方面的移民政策很清晰。那他这么做的好处是——
BRUCE： I think it will be hard for him to—I think that he‘ll want to—he’ll probably welcome skilled immigration， because the country needs it， it‘s good for business， it’s good for the economy。 It doesn‘t—and by welcoming some people， then he’ll feel he is able to be tougher on illegals。 I think the area that is where what he said was most extreme and where almost no one stands with him is on the whole Muslim ban or we‘re gonna ask people what their—the sort of scrutiny that he wants to give to legal immigrants as to whether they’re a “threat” to the United States。 That is—I don‘t know what he’ll do on that。 Obviously， he‘s not gonna be able to get away with just banning Muslims。 And maybe that will just end up being legal immigrants who come from countries that harbor terrorists will be put through heightened scrutiny， which will probably feel like a Muslim ban to Muslims。 But I would say that H1B， all that stuff， like it should be fine。 And yeah， we don’t know how Trump will treat—like the true base of the Republican Party is American business。 And Trump has been kind of dismissive of that on trade， and kind of dismissive on the general issue， I‘m pretty sure。 I don’t know。 Like， I kind of think the guy‘s all talk on a lot of stuff， that it’s， you know， talking tough on immigration is worth a lot more than actually being tough。
布鲁斯：我觉得这点很难，他想的是，欢迎技术移民，因为国家需要，发展需要，经济需要。因为欢迎了一部分人，所以他觉得自己在非法移民问题上很严厉。我想问题集中在他说话很极端的那一块。几乎没人和他站同一边的地方是，对整个穆斯林实施禁令，或者说对合法移民发放某种安全凭证，以证明他们对国家不是威胁。我不太清楚他要怎么做。显然，如果他直接禁止了穆斯林移民，那肯定会遭人说道。而且，到头来，可能结果是来自有包庇恐怖分子国家的非法移民，他们会通过森严的安检，这会让穆斯林人感觉是针对整个穆斯林的禁令。我想说，像H1B一类的东西，都没问题。但是我们不知道川普是怎么打算的，整个共和党的根基其实是美国的商业利益集团。川普显得有点反对商业利益在贸易上的看法，在一些一般问题上反对，这一点我很肯定。我想，川普在很多问题上仅仅只是动动嘴，谈论对移民不留情面可要比实际上真的执行更能赢得关注。
YANG： Yeah， I think after this total upset， the media of the United States—journalism and media are basically discredited， probably for a long time。 So many [BRUCE： Yeah。] readers or viewers would be very skeptical about what the media‘s going to say， at least for a short time。 So when Trump talks a lot about what he’s gonna do， even though it‘s just posturing or talking， which source would be a good source to make sure it’s the right information？ It‘s a signal； it’s not the noise for the American people？
羊：是。这次总统大选大翻盘之后，美国的媒体界，新闻和媒体都基本上都丢失了公信力，可能重拾要花很长时间。[布鲁斯：嗯。]短期内，很多读者和观众都会对媒体报的事持怀疑态度。那么，川普大谈特谈他要做的事，即便只是装腔作势、动动嘴皮，这时哪种信息源才算得上提供了正确的信息呢？就是说，美国人如何获得真实的信号，而不是虚假的噪音？
BRUCE： Good question。 Well， you‘re right that the media will be discredited， but everybody who’s rooting against Trump will pay even more attention to the media than they did before， so that， you know， everybody who didn‘t vote for Trump is gonna count on theNew York Timesand theWashington Postand theHuffington Postand everybody else to， you know， make them feel better by trashing him。 And Trump， even more than most presidents， will hate the way he gets treated by the mainstream media [YANG： Mhm。] and use it his advantage where he can。 But also find other channels to send the signals that he wants to send。 I don’t know if he‘ll actually create his own， you know， there was a lot of talk that if he lost， he’d create his own news network。 [YANG： Mhm。] Nobody really talked about whether he would create one if he won。 But there‘s a pretty healthy constellation of conservative news organizations that will be an excellent distribution source for his—what he wants to tell them。 That’s a long way of saying， I don‘t think there will be a single trusted source that will be a mainstream media bias against him [YANG： Mhm。]， perhaps correctly， but you know， the media has played a—has done everything in its power to stop him and mostly helped him along the way。
布鲁斯：很好的问题。呃，你说得对，媒体丧失了公信力，但是每个反对川普的人都会给比以往更加关注媒体，这样一来，他们就会指望《纽约时报》、《华盛顿邮报》和《赫芬顿邮报》，然后每当他们痛斥川普时，就会觉得很爽。而川普，比起大多数美国总统来，会非常痛恨主流媒体对待他的方式，他会发挥自己的优势。但同时他也会找到其他渠道来为自己发声。我不知道他会不会自己创立一家媒体，你可能也听说了，传言说他败选的话他会自己创立一家媒体。[羊：嗯。]但也没人说过他会不会在胜选后自创一家媒体。不过，的确有一群三观正的保守新闻机构可以作为靠谱的信息源，可以从他们那儿了解川普。这说起来还为时尚早，我不认为有唯一可靠的信息源可以用来代表主流媒体反对川普的偏见，[羊：嗯。]或者是正确的见解，但你也知道，媒体已经尽全力用自己的力量来反对川普了，当然大部分其实帮助了他走向胜选。
YANG： So my final question is about the climate change issue。 [BRUCE： Oh， mhm。] I think he cannot just pull out from the Paris Accord， but he can simply ignore some provisions。 And that would create certain collaboration problems with China。 [BRUCE： Yeah。] China has a very clear goal to curb carbon emissions。 [PAPER CRINKLING，BRUCE： Right。] But Trump is the guy who is talking about conspiracy from China。 What would that mean to people who are believers of the climate change issue？
羊：我最后一个问题是关于气候变化的。[布鲁斯：哦，好的。] 川普他不能直接退出《巴黎气候和约》，但是他可以无视一些条款。但这样一来，在和中国减排的合作上就会有一些问题。[布鲁斯：是的。] 中国制定了很清晰的减排目标，[纸张翻动声，布鲁斯：没错。] 但是川普却说气候变暖是中国的阴谋，这对那些相信气候变化的确存在的人来说，意味着什么呢？
BRUCE： Well， he could do some serious damage。 He could probably reverse the Environmental Protection Agency‘s rules that are changing power plants to be more efficient。 You know， he could just—there’s a bunch of stuff that Obama did by executive order to demonstrate that America was doing its part on climate change [YANG： Mhm。]。 Trump could put a stop to that quite easily if he wants to。 And that will send a signal to the rest of the world that， you know， thanks for agreeing with us to reduce climate change emissions。 We‘re not going to do that anymore [YANG： Mhm。]， but please proceed。 I don’t know。 I don‘t know if he’ll be—I don‘t know how much of that stuff he said to keep the Republicans happy。 I think he’s probably serious about it。 He wants to save the coal industry。 [YANG： Mhm。] There‘s—it’s possible to go about doing those things in ways that are sort of aimed at the future， like trying to create a coal industry that has a limited impact on carbon emissions， but everything he has said so far makes him sound like a complete climate change denier。 [YANG： Mhm。] So I would kind of assume the worst on that one。 [YANG： Yeah。] But you know， so then the question is so like， what does China do？ [YANG： Yeah。] Probably—
布鲁斯：川普可能造成一些严重危害，他可能开倒车，废掉美国环保署设立的用来提高电厂效能的条款。他可以很轻易办到。奥巴马通过一系列行政命令表明美国在为气候变化负责承担。[羊：嗯。]川普如果想的话，可以轻而易举地停止这一切。而这种做法也会向世界释放一个信号：感谢大家齐心协力减少排放，应对气候变化，我们现在要退出了，大家继续吧。[羊：嗯。]我不知道他会不会。我不知道他为了让共和党开心，说了多少类似的话。我觉他可能是认真的。他想拯救煤炭工业。[羊：嗯。]可能要做那些瞅准未来的事，像尝试着创建一个排放量有限的煤炭工业，但是目前为止，他所说的一切都让人觉得他不承认有气候变化这回事。[羊：嗯。]我倾向于做最坏的打算，但是这样一来，问题就是，中国要怎么办？[羊：嗯。]可能——
YANG： China may take the lead。
羊：可能中国在应对气候变化中扮演全球领导角色。
BRUCE： China may take the lead。 Some of what China wants to do is painful and difficult， but it has domestic dividends。
布鲁斯：中国可能会扮演领导角色，中国要领导起来，一些事很痛苦、很棘手，但这在中国国内会产生红利。
YANG： Yeah， basically China wants to move to a more service-oriented economy， with more domestic consumption rather than investment-driven sort of economy。 So [BRUCE： Right。] if China takes the lead， it‘s also very helpful to its economy。
羊：是的。可以说，中国想转型成服务驱动型的经济体，促进国内消费而不是投资拉动型的经济。[布鲁斯：嗯。]所以如果中国可以领导各国应对气候变化，对中国的经济也很有助益。
BRUCE： Right， and a missed opportunity for us。
布鲁斯：没错，对我们美国而言是错失了一次机会。
YANG： Yeah。
羊：是的。
BRUCE： Because we should be wanting to be the ones who make the new technology that the rest of the world adopts。 But， there‘s a big part of American life that the government can’t screw up。 Our entrepreneurs and innovators are going to continue to look for more efficient ways to create， to make energy。 And we‘ve got plenty of business people who are gonna try to seize the world opportunity for climate change。 Whether they can get very far with a government that’s kind of actively undermining it， I don‘t know。 And， you know， I mean， Paris was just an agreement； it’s not a road map。 [YANG： Yeah。] It‘s just a， “Hey， let’s work together to solve this， and here‘s some goals。” But not—it doesn’t say how we‘re going to do it。
布鲁斯：因为我们本来想的是，研发（绿色能源经济的）新技术，然后让世界上的其他国家采用我们的技术。但是，美国政府也不能改变美国人现有的生活方式。我们的企业家和发明家会继续关注更有效率的方式，以便发掘能源。我们还有很多商人，他们想抓住气候变化中孕育的机遇。我不知道他们面对这个从中作梗的政府能走多远。我是说，巴黎和约只是个合约，而不是路径图。[羊：嗯。]它只是表明大家想法：“我们一起来解决气候变化，我们的目标是这些。”但是却没说我们该怎么做。
YANG： You can take it—
羊：你可以先接下电话——
BRUCE： No， it‘s okay。 I can call her back。 So， yeah， if you’re—there are [PHONE VIBRATES]—that‘s a good example of a really bad idea that Trump has that no one paid really attention to while he—I bet that there are， outside of West Virginia， there aren’t very many voters who voted for him that took climate change into account。 They were trying to send a signal for other reasons， but they weren‘t voting for Donald Trump to save carbon emissions [LAUGHS]
布鲁斯：没事，我晚点再打给她。所以说，如果你——[手机振动声]——这是一个很好的例子，川普有一个坏主意，但是却没人在意。我打赌，在西维吉尼亚外，考虑到气候变化问题的人里没几个给他投票的。他们可能有其他理由给川普投票让他为自己代言，但是他们肯定不是为了让川普缓解碳排放压力才给他投票的。
YANG： Great。 I‘m thinking about [how] the academic community comes to terms with Trump’s election， and also the Obama administration had lots of professors from this university。 But basically， Trump may have less of a pool of people to select from。
羊：嗯。我在想学术界是如何对川普的胜选妥协的。奥巴马政府班底任命了芝加哥大学里很多教授，但是川普却并没有那么多人才可以选拔。
BRUCE： Yeah， when your base didn‘t go to college， you need advisors who—you can’t just surround yourself with advisors who do college for a living。
布鲁斯：是的，你的人才如果不在大学的话，你需要策略顾问，你不能仅仅让一群在大学里混饭吃的人围着你给你出谋划策。
YANG： And also， some professors who may not be that opposed to Trump may find it shameful to serve him。 [BRUCE： Yeah。] The academic community‘s very left-skewed。
羊：还有，一些教授，并不是那么地反对川普，但他们可能觉得为川普效力有些丢脸。[布鲁斯：是。] 毕竟学术界很明显偏左派。
BRUCE： Definitely。 And even the political community‘s gonna be—there are plenty of people who are gonna be nervous about going to work for Donald Trump。 Because it’s—he， you know， he may turn out to be an effective president， I don‘t know。 But there aren’t a lot of successful people who run in social circles where people are gonna say， “Oh， that‘s so great， you’re going to work for Donald Trump， you should be so proud。” Quite the opposite。 So I don‘t know。 The crowd that was up with him onstage last night was not a very impressive crowd。 Rudy Giuliani was long since past his prime， and Chris Christie may be on his way to jail [LAUGHTER]， and you know， Jeff Sessions is like a [YANG： Mhm。]， you know， dim-bulb Southern senator—that’s —we‘ll see now that he’s won， whether there are opportunists that say， “Well， I was just kidding about， you know， not being excited about him。” But he also is—just as a former White House staffer， I think I can honestly say he looks like he would be a risky guy to work for， because he might think you‘re great and be your biggest champion， or he might forget to mention you。 He didn’t mention his own Vice President who was standing next to him until the very end of his acceptance speech。 [YANG： Yeah。] And so， people who—many people who have worked for him say that he‘s a great leader and listens to all points of view and， you know， acts in his own self-interest and so wants to hear different points of view about what’s in his best self-interest。 So he may turn out to be effective anyway。 But， everybody‘s gonna think long and hard before signing up to be part of—if you’re from the establishment， Democrat or Republican， you know， you‘re not gonna rush to go work for a guy who got elected by blaming you for all of America’s problems。 [LAUGHS]
布鲁斯：的确如此。就连政界也有这种感觉，因为要给川普效力，很多人变得紧张。他也许到头来成了一位卓有成效的总统。但是成功人士的社交圈子里，没几个人会说：“噢，太赞了，你要为川普效力，你应该自豪才对。”情况恰恰相反。所以不好说。昨天晚上和川普一同登台的人并不是一群卓越之才。鲁迪·朱利安尼（注：前纽约市市长）已经过了他的全胜时期。克里斯·克里斯蒂（注：第55任新泽西州州长）可能快要进监狱了。（注：因为“堵窍门”，参考羊说另一期专访克里斯·克里斯蒂的首席策划师：迈克·杜海姆： 川普只是一面镜子）[笑] 还有杰夫·赛锡恩（注：阿拉巴马州共和党参议员，被川普提名为司法部部长），像一个呆瓜的南方参议员。他现在赢了选举，但是不知道有没有投机者说过“我只是开玩笑，我并不是不看好他。”但他也是，我作为白宫的老员工，说实话，我觉得他看上去是那种不太好打交道的人。因为他要么觉得你很厉害，然后处处拥护你，要么就彻底不把你放在眼里。他发表就职演说的那天，直到最后一刻才提到了他身边站着的副手。（注：即Mike Pence，副总统候选人）[羊：是的。] 很多为他工作过的人都说他是个好领导，听取各方意见，但他只做对自己有利的事，他听取各方意见是因为他想知道什么最符合自己的利益。他可能到头来也显得卓有成效。不过人人可能都会在签名加入之前，苦苦思索良久。如果你是建制派、民主党人或共和党人，你就不会急着跑去为他工作，因为他的胜选是通过贬低这些人实现的。
YANG： Cool。 Thank you， thank you for these policy questions。 I just had two， but after this election， I have three， climate change included。 So， thank you so much。
羊：太棒了，谢谢你，谢谢回答我这些政策性问题。我本来只有两个问题，但是大选之后，我又多了一个，包括了气候问题，真的非常感谢。
BRUCE： Yeah。 Well， it was good talking to you。 Thanks for coming by。
布鲁斯：不客气，和你聊天很开心，欢迎你来。
YANG： Great， thanks so much。
羊：非常感谢。
BRUCE： Nice to see you。 Thanks for coming by。
布鲁斯：不客气。
YANG： Take care。
羊：保重。
特别鸣谢Leon的英翻中以及字幕制作
本文作者系新浪国际旗下“地球日报”自媒体联盟成员，授权稿件，转载需获原作者许可。文章言论不代表新浪观点。
