来源：英文联播
Woodward’s Account of Trump’s Mock Interview with Prosecutors Isn’t Pretty
“I’m not sure。” “I don’t know。 “I can’t remember。” In a mock interview with President Trump to prepare him for a possible sit-down with the special counsel’s office， Trump’s lawyer reportedly found that there was a lot Trump couldn’t remember about key events relevant to the Russia investigation。
“我不确定”“我不知道”“我记不起来了”。据称特朗普总统在模拟应对独立检察官办公室“请喝茶”时，他的律师发现关于涉俄调查的诸多关键事件，特朗普很多都记不起来。
In a new book， “Fear： Trump in the White House，” by Bob Woodward， obtained by The Atlantic ahead of its release next week， Woodward offers the first detailed look at the way the president might handle an interview with the experienced prosecutors on Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s team。
《大西洋月刊》提前获得鲍勃·伍德沃德下周出版的新书《恐惧：白宫中的特朗普》，伍德沃德在书中首次详细叙述了总统会如何对付独立检察官罗伯特·穆勒团队中经验丰富的检察官。
“If the questions seem harmless， don‘t treat them that way，” Trump’s then-lawyer，John Dowd， advised the president during the mock interview in January， according to Woodward’s account。 “And I want you thoroughly focused on listening to the words。”
“如果问题看起来无害，请不要那样应对，”沃德沃德说，特朗普当时的律师约翰·多德在1月的模拟中如是建议。“我想你要仔细地听清对方说的话。”
The first question Dowd threw at Trump was about former national security adviserMichael Flynn’s conversations with the former Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak。 Flynn was forced to resign in February 2017 when reports surfaced that he had discussed the issue of sanctions with Kislyak， despite repeated denials—including to Vice President Mike Pence—that the topic had ever come up。
多德抛给特朗普的第一个问题有关前国家安全顾问迈克尔·弗林与前俄国大使谢尔盖·基斯利亚克的谈话。2017年2月，弗林被迫辞职，当时他被爆曾与基斯利亚克谈论对俄制裁问题，尽管弗林多次否认，包括向副总统迈克·彭斯否认，说自己从来没谈过这件事。
Not only were the sanctions discussed in every phone call， Woodward writes， but transcripts obtained by the White House in February， as they were weighing whether or not to fire Flynn， showed that it was Flynn， and not Kislyak， who first brought up the sanctions that President Obama had issued in December in response to Russia’s election interference。
伍德沃德写道，不仅每次打电话都说到了制裁，白宫2月获得文字实录显示，正是弗林而非基斯利亚克首次提起奥巴马总统12月签署的制裁，作为俄国干涉大选的回报，当时白宫正在斟酌是否要开除弗林。
Acting Attorney General Sally Yates warned White House Counsel Don McGahn in January that Flynn had misled Pence and the FBI about the calls。 Still， the White House waited 17 days to fire Flynn， and the day after he was ousted， Trump met with then-FBI Director James Comey and asked if he would consider letting Flynn “go。” That 17-day gap and Trump’s subsequent request to Comey have come under scrutiny by Mueller。
1月，代理司法部长萨利·耶茨警告白宫顾问唐·麦加恩说，弗林在电话问题上误导了彭斯和联调局。白宫迟疑了17天才开掉弗林，他被炒后第二天，特朗普会见了时任联调局局长詹姆斯·科米，问他是否会考虑放弗林“一马”。穆勒认真调查了这17天的迟疑和特朗普此后对科米的请求。
“When did you first learn that there was a problem with General Flynn？” Dowd asked Trump in their mock interview， Woodward writes。 “I‘m not sure，” Trump replied。 “I think when McGahn had talked to Sally Yates.But John， I’m not sure。”
伍德沃德写道，“你什么时候第一次得知弗林将军有问题？”多德在模拟问答中问特朗普。“我不确定，”特朗普回答。“我想是麦加恩和萨利·耶茨谈话后吧。不过约翰，我也不确定。”
Dowd， playing the role of a prosecutor， retorted： “What’d you do about it？” “I think Don took a hold of it，” Trump said。 ”Did you call Flynn in？“ Dowd asked。 “No，” Trump said。 ”Did you talk to Flynn at all？“ Dowd pressed。 ”I don‘t know，” Trump replied。 “Well， Mr。 President， did you ever ask him if he talked about sanctions with Kislyak？” “No，” Trump said。
扮演检察官的多德回问道：“你是怎么做的？”“我想唐会处理。”“你约见弗林了吗？”多德问。“没有。”特朗普答。“你与弗林说过话吗？”多德接着问。“我不知道。”特朗普答。“好吧，总统先生，你是否问过他是否同基斯利亚克说过制裁的事？”“没有。”特朗普答。
Dowd， Woodward writes， was unrelenting： “Are you sure about that， Mr。 President？ We have some evidence that there may have been such a conversation。 Are you sure about that？”
伍德沃德说，多德咄咄逼人。“你确定吗？总统先生。我们有些证据表明有过这种对话。你确定吗？”
At that point， Trump went off on a tangent that was difficult to follow， according to Woodward， eventually reiterating that he “felt very bad” for Flynn， whom he “admired，” but that McGahn and the then-chief-of-staff Reince Priebus had recommended that Flynn be fired。
伍德沃德说，此时，特朗普开始云山雾罩，让人摸不着头脑，最后重申他为弗林感到“非常痛心”，他“欣赏”弗林，但麦加恩和当时的幕僚长雷恩斯·普利巴斯提议把弗林开掉。
Dowd then posed a question that is considered central to whether Trump was trying to obstruct justice when he fired Flynn and then asked Comey to consider letting him go： Did McGahn and Priebus “ever tell you about an FBI interview？” “I don’t know，” Trump replied。 “I can’t remember。”
多德提出一个关键问题，这被认为决定了特朗普是否在解雇弗林及随后要求科米考虑放他一马时试图妨害司法 ：麦加恩和普利巴斯“曾告诉你联调局曾对他问了话吗？”“我不知道，”特朗普回答说。“我记不起来。”
This back-and-forth is notablein light of Trump’s tweetin December， one month before this mock interview with Dowd， in which he appeared to admit that he’d known Flynn had lied to the FBI。
这些问答回合很辣眼，因为与多德进行模拟问答1个月前，也就是12月，特朗普貌似承认他知道弗林向联调局撒谎。
“I had to fire General Flynn because he lied to the Vice President and the FBI，” Trump wrote。 “He has pled guilty to those lies。 It is a shame because his actions during the transition were lawful。 There was nothing to hide！” （In an ironic twist， Dowdlater took responsibilityfor writing that tweet。）
“我必须开掉弗林将军，因为他向副总统和联调局撒谎，”特朗普写道。“他承认自己说谎，真可惜，因为他在过渡政府期间的行为是合法的，没什么好隐藏的！”（颇具反讽的是，多德后来就负责写那条推文。）
Trump was similarly forgetful when asked whether he knew anything at all about Flynn’s calls with Kislyak during the transition period。 “I don‘t know，” Trump reportedly said。 “I know there were a lot of conversations among the staff。”
特朗普被问及是否知道弗林在过渡政府期间给基斯利亚克打电话一事上同样健忘。“我不知道，”据称特朗普说。“我只知道员工间交流很多。”
Trump’s repeated claims that he couldn’t remember the details of Flynn’s firing mirror his son’s responses to the House Intelligence Committee during a closed-door hearing last year： Donald Trump Jr。 responded “I don’t recall” or “I don’t know” approximately 100 times to questions that covered everything from the Trump Tower meeting with Russians in June 2016 to the Trump Organization’s business practices。 Claiming not to remember certain facts， rather than make up your own， is the standard response recommended by defense attorneys。
特朗普反复表示他记不起来弗林被炒的细节，这倒印证了去年众议院情报委员会闭门听证会上他儿子的回答：小特朗普用了大概100次“我记不起来”和“我不知道”作答2016年6月在特朗普大厦会晤俄国人以及特朗普集团商业行为等各种问题。说记不清具体细节，而非做出你自己的解释，这是辩护律师给出的标准答案。
“If you don‘t know the facts， I’d just prefer you to say， Bob， I just don‘t remember，” Dowd told Trump， according to Woodward。 “Instead of sort of guessing and making all kinds of wild conclusions。“ But such testimony could come off as cagey and unconvincing， especially as it relates to certain key moments in Trump’s presidency。 （Mueller is prepared to accept written answers from Trump on questions of a conspiracy between his campaign and Russia，The New York Timesreported on Tuesday。 But his testimony as it relates to obstruction of justice still appears to be on the table。）
沃德沃德书中说，“如果你记不清事实，我建议你说，鲍勃，我实在记不起来了，”多德对特朗普说。“不要瞎蒙或轻易得出任何结论。”可这种证词太过奸猾，难以令人相信，尤其有关特朗普总统任职期间的一些关键事件。（《纽约时报》周二报道，穆勒准备就有关竞选与俄国之间存在合谋的问题接受特朗普的书面回答，但有关妨害司法的作证将面对面进行。）
Eager to prevent the president from testifying， Dowd worked tirelessly to convince Mueller that the investigation should be wrapped up， according to Woodward。
伍德沃德说，多德希望总统不要参加作证，他竭尽全力地让穆勒认为，调查应该该结束了。
At one point， Kelly urged Dowd to tell Mueller that the probe was preventing Trump from constructively engaging with Putin on various national security issues， for fear of appearing overly solicitous of the Russian leader。
有一次，凯利敦促多德对穆勒说，调查阻碍了特朗普在各种国家安全问题上与普京开展建设性接触，因为特朗普担心会看起来对俄国领导人太过主动。
Kelly told Dowd that even Mattis， traditionally Hawkish on Russia， favored such engagement by Trump。 “Mattis has told the president that Putin and the Russians are just getting too dangerous， and that we‘re going to have to deal with them，” Kelly told Dowd。 “And I want you to convey that to [Mueller。]”
凯利告诉多德，连传统上对俄国持鹰派立场的马蒂斯都希望特朗普与俄国进行接触。“马蒂斯对总统说，普京和俄国人现在太危险了，我们必须去处理，”他对多德说。“我希望你把这个意思传达一下。”
After several meetings with Mueller’s team， Dowd ultimately decided that he did not trust them， and strongly advised the president not to do the interview， according to Woodward。 But he did not trust Trump， either-not to tell the truth， anyway。 He warned the president that if he spoke to Mueller， he’d end up “in an orange jumpsuit。”
伍德沃德说，与穆勒团队会晤多次后，多德最终得出结论，他不信任穆勒团队，并强烈建议总统不要接受问话。但他也不信任特朗普，特朗普归根到底也不肯讲真话。他警告总统说，如果要和穆勒对话，最后就会“蹲大狱”。
Woodward ended the book with a blunt， and ominous， assessment： “In the man and his presidency Dowd had seen the tragic flaw。 In the political back-and-forth， the evasions， the denials， the tweeting， the obscuring， crying ‘Fake News，’ the indignation， Trump had one overriding problem that Dowd knew but could not bring himself to say to the president： ‘You‘re a fucking liar。’”
伍德沃德在本书末尾做出一个生硬且不详的评价：“多德发现了这个男人和他身为总统的致命缺陷。在一系列政治拉锯中，躲闪、拒绝、发推文、打太极、抨击假新闻、狂怒……可特朗普有一个最大的问题，多德知道那是什么却不能告诉总统——你他妈就是一个骗子。”
Dowd disputed this in a statement released on Tuesday： “I have not read Bob Woodward’s book， which appears to be the most recent in an endless cycle of accusations and misrepresentations based on anonymous statements from unknown malcontents 。。。 I did not refer to the President as a ‘liar’ and did not say that he was likely to end up in an ‘orange jumpsuit。’ It was a great honor and distinct privilege to serve President Trump。”
多德周二发表声明驳斥说：“我没有读过鲍勃·伍德沃德的书，一轮一轮的指控和误述都基于不知从哪里冒出来的反对者的匿名声明，这不过是最新的一回……我从没说过总统是骗子，也没说他可能要蹲大狱，为特朗普总统服务是我最大的荣耀和特权。”
Woodward zooms out at several points in the book， stepping back to marvel at the absurdity of the world he is reporting on—and what he saw as his own role in fueling the president’s paranoia。
伍德沃德多次在书中把镜头拉远，退一步思考他报道的这个世界有多么荒谬以及他自己扮演了何种角色，促使总统变得偏执。
At one point， Woodward addresses comments he made on Fox News in January 2017 about the Trump-Russia dossier authored by former British spy Christopher Steele。 Woodward called the document “garbage” and chastised the FBI for bringing it to the president’s attention。
有一节，伍德沃德提到他2017年1月在福克斯新闻对前英国间谍克里斯托弗·斯梯利撰写的“特朗普-俄国”档案发表的评论。伍德沃德称档案是“垃圾”，谴责联调局让总统知道这个档案。
His comments raised eyebrows at the time because his old reporting partner from the days of Watergate， Carl Bernstein， was part of the team that broke the dossier story for CNN。 Trump quickly picked up on Woodward’s comments and thanked him for themin a tweet。
当时他的评论让人大跌眼镜，因为他在水门岁月中的报道搭档卡尔·伯恩斯坦正是向CNN爆料团队中的一员。特朗普很快借用了伍德沃德的评论，并在推文中感谢他。
“I was not delighted to appear to have taken sides， but I felt strongly that such a document， even in an abbreviated form， really was ‘garbage’ and should have been handled differently，” Woodward writes。 He did not elaborate on his reasons for thinking the dossier was useless。
“我不喜欢让人看起来有所偏袒，但我强烈感觉到这种文件，虽然是精缩版，实在是垃圾，本来应该不这样搞，”伍德沃德说。他没有详细解释自己认为档案没有价值的理由。
But that belief seemed to contradict his own reporting on what former CIA Director John Brennan had told former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper about the dossier： namely， that it would “add substantiation to what we are doing，” and that the information was in line with what the agency’s own sources had revealed。
但这种信念貌似和他自己对前中情局局长约翰·布伦南对前国家情报主管詹姆斯·克拉珀汇报这份档案的报道相抵牾，文章说档案将“给我们所做的事带来实锤”，它符合中情局从自己消息源得到的信息。
In a stark moment of either self-awareness or arrogance， Woodward declares blithely in the book that his own denunciation of the dossier helped to launch the president down his destructive path。 “The episode played a big role in launching Trump‘s war with the intelligence world，” Woodward wrote， “especially the FBI and Comey。”
或出于自知，或因为傲慢，伍德沃德在书中得意地宣称，他对这个档案的斥责让总统走向了自我毁灭的道路。“这个桥段发挥了巨大作用，让总统对情报界开战，”伍德沃德说，“尤其对联调局和科米。”
本文作者系新浪国际旗下“地球日报”自媒体联盟成员，授权稿件，转载需获原作者许可。文章言论不代表新浪观点。
