来源：羊说
在芝加哥大学北边，海德公园53街与Dorchester交界处，有一绿荫环绕的小碑，镌刻着奥巴马与米歇尔的初吻。“我们第一次约会，我请她吃了Baskin-Robbins最棒的冰淇淋。。。 我吻了她，味道就像巧克力”。大多数政治家的碑文往往是歌颂政绩战功，而这处名叫“Obama kissing Rock”的小碑却刻画了第一夫妇当年的青涩尴尬与温情脉脉。
1989年，两位年轻人在Sidley Austin LLP律所相遇，奥巴马28岁，米歇尔25岁。此时米歇尔因为资历更老，被分配作为奥巴马的上司兼导师。米歇尔回忆道，“因为我去了哈佛，他也去了哈佛，公司认为‘噢，我们把他俩凑在一块儿’”。一个月后，正直夏季，奥巴马开始主动约会自己的上司，他俩一起在芝加哥艺术博物馆吃午餐，一起看黑人导演Spike Lee的《为所应为》（Do the Right Thing）。“他展示了一切——他时尚前沿，文质彬彬，感性。喷泉边约会，会玩花样！他的步履，持重有道！”米歇尔之后说到。奥巴马后来在Ellen Show中饶有兴致地提到，那次请吃冰激凌完成了使命（seal the deal）。
1991年，两人订婚，次年结婚。米歇尔回忆，“巴拉克没有许诺富贵，而是一个有趣的人生。这一点，他做到了”。1998年，奥巴马夫妇有了第一个女儿，三年后第二个女儿出生。2004年奥巴马当选伊利诺伊州参议员，四年后成为美国第一位黑人总统。2017年，卸任后的奥巴马与米歇尔庆祝结婚25周年。
时光荏苒，人生似乎是一场戏剧；平凡与琐碎被掩盖，留下的光环让人炫目，剩下的只是空空的架构。羊说在此前的文章中就探讨了奥巴马性格的蜕变与政治生涯的转折点（对话 | 奥巴马演讲的蜕变与政治转折点）。奥巴马远不像特朗普的自我标榜，他真实人生与成绩与众多好友和导师密不可分。而在这些导师中，就有这一位亦师亦友的女性角色——瓦莱丽·贾芮特。
瓦莱丽出生于伊朗，父母是美国人，父亲在伊朗开一所儿童医院。瓦莱丽5岁一家迁往伦敦，一年后来到芝加哥。90年代瓦莱丽曾担任芝加哥市长Richard Daley的副幕僚长，在1991年雇用了私人律所的米歇尔·罗宾逊。彼时，米歇尔已经与奥巴马订婚，从此瓦莱丽和奥巴马夫妇结下知己般的友谊。
瓦莱丽的事业也蒸蒸日上，2000-2007先后担任芝加哥证券交易所董事成员和主席；1996-2009年担任芝加哥大学医学院校董，并于2006年担任主席。她也在芝加哥大学担任校董副主席，芝加哥科学与工业博物馆董事。2009-2017年担任奥巴马白宫资政（Senior Advisor）。本期羊说探讨瓦莱丽如何做到亦师亦友，三十多年的友谊何以长青。更重要的是，奥巴马的决策风格如何？周边的人是如何参入自己的建议到决策过程中？这个流程体现出奥巴马是怎样的一位领导？借此，我们也许能够和现在特朗普的决策过程做一个鲜明对比。
对话文稿
Valerie Jarrett on working for Obamas
Duration： 6：30
Interviewed 4/11/2018
YANG： Hi。
向杨：你好。
VALERIE JARRETT： Hi！
瓦莱丽·贾芮特：你好！
YANG： My name‘s Yang， second-year in Sociology。 Thank you for coming back home。
向杨：我叫向杨，社会学二年级博士生。欢迎回到芝大。
VALERIE JARRETT： Thank you。
瓦莱丽·贾芮特：谢谢。
YANG： I‘m really interested in the interval between what we can read from Obama’s two memoirs， Dreams of My Father and The Audacity of Hope。 Obviously， you played a huge role leading to Obama‘s Senate victory。 And the question is， you hired Michelle Obama and by a force of nature， you swept the two young lawyers under your wing。 But what are some of the challenges working for President Obama when you transitioned from this mentor-like friend to an employee， which means a structure wherein between you and the Obamas， there might be a lot of other people。 And in general terms， how should a long-time， personal relationship jibe with a functional role in the White House？
向杨：我特别好奇在奥巴马两部回忆录之间，这段时光中发生了什么。第一部是《我父亲的梦想》，另一部是《无畏的希望》。毋庸置疑，你在奥巴马当年参议员胜选过程中发挥了重要作用。我的问题是，你那时雇佣了米歇尔·奥巴马，并且凭借某种洪荒之力将两位年轻律师收入麾下。（注：90年代瓦莱丽曾担任芝加哥市长Richard Daley的副幕僚长，在1991年雇用了私人律所的米歇尔·罗宾逊。彼时，米歇尔已经与奥巴马订婚，从此瓦莱丽和奥巴马夫妇结下知己般的友谊）那么，为奥巴马工作时你面临了哪些挑战呢？即当你从类似导师加挚友的角色突然转换为一名雇员，毕竟这意味着，当你成为白宫雇员后，在你与奥巴马夫妇的交往结构之间，又多了其他的人？或者总体上来说，如何协调长期的私人友谊与你在白宫中需要扮演的角色呢？
VALERIE JARRETT： Such a good question。 I get asked this oftentimes， like how do you be both？ How do you be a friend and a mentor， and then an employee， right， and an advisor？ And I think now that I have time to reflect back on the time we spent together， that I think I was a better friend because I was his advisor。 So， what I mean by that is， if we had dinner at night， I know what happened during his day， because I was there all day long with him。 If he was struggling with some thorny problem—and the biggest challenges for him were decisions about putting our young men and women in harm‘s way。 Those decisions weighed on him gravely。 And so if we were sitting around the table and other friends were there， and they didn’t know what he‘d been through in the course of the day， I was able to be a better friend because I did know。
瓦莱丽·贾芮特：这个问题很赞。我常被问及这一点。比如有人问，你怎样同时扮演这两种不同角色呢？你如何做到亦师亦友，又是一位雇员与顾问的呢？我觉得现在是时候来回顾一下我们一起工作的时光了。我觉得自己是他更好的朋友，因为我是他的顾问。我这么说的意思是，如果我们共进晚餐，我清楚当天对于他都发生了什么，因为我们每天都在一起共事。如果他正被一些棘手的问题缠身——对他而言，最揪心的就是将我们的年青男女送往险境。这些决策让他很是担忧。所以当我们坐在桌前，虽然其他朋友也在，但这些人并不知道他当天经历了什么，我能成为他更好的朋友是因为我知道这些。
I think I was also a better advisor because I was a friend。 And because of the stage of life I was in when I joined his administration， I wasn‘t looking for my next job。 I was only there to serve him and our country， and to just give him the best advice that I could。 And because I know he loves me unconditionally， he can’t get rid of me as his friend。 So—and if I were to disagree with him， he knew that it was me just telling him what I think。 And the kind of manager he was is that he wanted people to be honest with him。 And because I knew that that’s what he wanted， I could set an example for other people， particularly in the beginning before people got to know him。 You find the higher you go， the fewer people there are who will actually tell you the truth， because they think you really know all the answers or they‘re intimidated by you， or whatever else the psychology is。 And so I would go into a meeting and I’d say what I thought。 And respectfully， because he was the President of the United States， but this is what I think， and then it encouraged other people to do the same。 And then we trusted that having run a good process， he would make the right decision。 And I think because of that bond of trust that we have， it made the transition work better。
我认为自己也是一个更好的顾问，因为我是他的朋友。因为我已经不算年轻了，加入他的领导班子时，所以我并没有打算找下家。我只想好好效力于他的团队和我们的国家，给他我能给的最佳建议。我知道他会无条件地信任我，会一直把我当做朋友，所以——如果我和他的观点不同，他会明白我只是想说出我的想法。他是那种管理者，就是他想让人们能对他说实话。正是因为我知道他的想法，我自然可以为他人做出表率，特别是在一开始人们还不怎么了解他的时候。毕竟，随着你逐渐位高权重，愿意告诉你实情的人也少了，因为别人都觉得你肯定知道所有的答案，或者别人都畏惧你，或者是类似的心态吧。我呢，会在会议上直言不讳。但我是带着敬意的，毕竟他是美国总统，但我说的就是我所想的。我这么做就会鼓励别人也这么做。这样我们就会确信，一个好的过程自然会帮他做出正确的决定。我认为因为我们之间有这种信任的纽带，我们的工作交接也比较顺利。
I will say to you that I did say to him when he first offered me the job， I said， “You know， I‘ve spent the first couple decades of our friendship， where I’m like the boss of you。 [LAUGHTER] And now you‘re telling me that you’re gonna be the boss of me。” And he said， “Yes， but I‘m also gonna be the President of the United States。 [LAUGHTER] And so I think you can come and do that。” And it was incredible。 I will say that because of our closeness， when he was attacked in ways that I thought were not warranted， which were most of the time， it hurt。 And so I had to learn to control my emotions more so than if I hadn’t had a prior， long-standing relationship with both he and his wife。 And the same thing applies to her。 Whenever she was criticized， I mean I felt it deeply and profoundly and had to work to not let my emotions show to them， because my job was to be strong。 But it hurt me whenever they got hurt。
还有就是，我首次接受他给我的工作时，我是这么说的：“你看，我们做朋友的这些年里，我一直都像你的老板一样。[笑] 而现在你却在给我提供职位，做我的老板了。”然后他说：“没错，此外我还是美国总统。[笑] 我觉得你可以来我们团队做事。”这简直难以置信。因为我们彼此非常熟悉，所以当他受到不公的非难时，他经常经历这种事，我也很难受。因此我不得不时常学着控制住这种难受，很努力地控制，就是因为我和他还有他太太一直都是好朋友。对他太太也是一样。每当她被批评时，我也能真切地体会那种难受，而且必须要努力克制自己的感情，因为我的工作需要我坚强。但他们受伤时我也总是很受伤。
YANG： Thank you。
向杨：谢谢。
VALERIE JARRETT： Good question。 One last thing on that question， but you can come on up。 Because this is important in terms of management。 And there were people who thought perhaps I had an unfair advantage， because we were friends， and because I would have dinner with them， you know， was I re-litigating decisions that were being made？ And I think over time what people grew to understand and appreciate was that first of all， he didn‘t want to talk about work， nor did I， when we were having dinner。 Does anybody really want to go home and talk about the struggles of the day？ You might vent for a minute and then you’re done， and you go to children and family and movies and gossip， just like everybody else。
瓦莱丽·贾芮特：这是个好问题。关于这个问题还有一点，你可以先回到位置上。这一点就管理而言很重要。有的人觉得我是关系户，因为我和奥巴马是朋友，而且我还能和他一起吃晚餐，那我是不是在左右已经做好的决策呢？我想人们会逐渐意识到并且认可，首先，他在晚餐时不想谈工作，我也不想。谁会愿意下班后回家大谈特谈自己一整天的糟心事呢？你可能会抱怨一会儿，然后就没然后了，接着你会去和孩子还有家人一起看看电影，聊聊天，就和普通人没什么两样。
The other thing is， in order for his team [5：00] to work the way he wanted it to work， he believed we should have our conversation in the room， all together。 And the way all of his Chiefs of Staff operated is that we would meet privately， without him first， discuss with senior advisors， write memos。 And the way—and this is kind of an interesting management strategy—whoever who had the pen on the strategy—so let‘s say it was an issue coming out of the Domestic Policy Council。 The head of Domestic Policy would write a memo， circulate it to the senior staff， we could all edit it， propose edits to it。 We could all add our names to it if we wanted to associate ourselves with it。 If， in the end， the person who had the pen disagreed with our edits， then that person was responsible for including in the memo， “Well， Valerie thinks this， and X thinks Y，” so the President would read a memo with either a united position or with differing opinions。 And then he could either make a decision on the memo， or he could invite us in and we’d have a conversation。 And then when the decision was made， that was that。
另一件点是，为了让他的团队能如他所想的那样运转，他认为我们应该一起在会议室讨论。他手下所有主管的工作方式是，我们先碰面开会，不包括他，和高级顾问商谈，做会议记录。这种方式——这种管理方式很有意思——不论是谁来定制策略——就假设现在有一个国内政策委员会那边的问题。国委会的领导会写一份记录，然后交给几位高级主管，我们都可以编辑它或者提出修改意见。我们都可以把自己的名字加上去，如果我们希望跟进这项工作。如果最后拿决定的那个人和我们的修改意见不一致，那么这个人就要负责在记录加进去一点：“瓦莱丽认为是这样，而X则认为是Y。”这样总统读记录时，要么会看到一致的意见，要么会看到相左的观点。然后他就能根据记录做决策，或者请我们过来再讨论一下。最后再做出决策时，就是最终决策了。
And so there was no litigating outside of that process。 And if had done that， then I wouldn‘t be a respected member of the team。 And I wouldn’t have been serving with him right。 But I‘ll be honest with you， in the beginning， people were suspicious， and I looked at it as my responsibility to win them over and convince them that I really—even though I had a unique relationship—I valued being part of the team。
因此，在这个流程之外，并没有什么能左右决策的事。如果我那么做的话，也不会受到团队的尊敬，更没法恰当地效力于他。但是说实话，一开始，人们是持怀疑态度的，不过我认为我有责任赢得他们的信任，让他们相信，我真的——尽管我和奥巴马私交甚好——我真的很在乎自己团队成员的这一身份。
Valerie Jarrett on meeting Obamas 30 years ago
Duration： 3：55
Interviewed 4/11/2018
MODERATOR： And so you met the Obamas at some point in this story。 It‘s sort of a famous story about how you met them。 Do you want to share that briefly [JARRETT： Sure！] for folks， and then we’ll talk about your ride with them。
主持人：在刚才讲到的经历中，你与奥巴马夫妇在某个阶段相遇？这个相会的故事也是家喻户晓，你愿意简单讲两句吗，[贾芮特：当然！] 给大家说说，之后我们再谈谈你和他们之后的经历。
VALERIE JARRETT： Well， certainly。 So when Mayor Daley promoted me to Deputy Chief of Staff， part of my responsibility was to staff up our office， because it was a new position。 And Susan Sher—the same Susan Sher—wrote me a note when she was Corporation Counsel， and it said， “Brilliant young lawyer， you should meet her。 She doesn‘t want to be in a law firm， thinks it’s deadly。 Wants to give back to public service。” And I thought， my kind of person。 I want to meet that woman。 Well， her name was Michelle Robinson。 And I interviewed her， and she bowled me away。 She started interviewing me， and I couldn‘t answer all her questions， and I kind of fumbled my way for an hour and a half。 And at the end， I said， “Look， we’d love for you to come。 Will you accept the job offer I‘m giving you？” Now， I didn’t have any authority to give her a job offer [LAUGHTER]， but I was just caught up in the moment。
瓦莱丽·贾芮特：好的，当然。当达利市长（注：Richard Daley，1989-2011担任芝加哥市长）提拔我做副幕僚长时，我的一部分职责就是为我们办公室招兵买马，因为那是个新部门。苏珊·雪尔（注：米歇尔·奥巴马做第一夫人时的幕僚长）——就是那个苏珊·雪尔——给我捎了句话，那时她还是法委会主席（注： Corporation Counsel 是美国一些市政府设立的高级行政职位，负责处理针对市政的公民投诉）她说：“有位年轻有为的女律师，你应该见见。她不想呆在律所，觉得那样是浪费生命。她想回到公共服务领域。”然后我觉得，这人我喜欢。我想见见她。然后，她的名字是米歇尔·罗宾逊。我面试了一下她，结果非常惊喜，其实是她开始面试我了，我是一问三不知。我差不多磕磕巴巴了一个半小时左右。最后，我说：“你看，我们挺希望你能加入我们的，你愿意接受我们这个职位吗？”那时我当然没有任何权利直接给她职位[笑]，不过那时候我的确不知道说什么好。
And so a few days later， we were talking， and I said， “So are you gonna come and join me？” And so she said， “I don‘t think so。” She said， “I talked it over with my fiancée。 He doesn’t think it‘s such a great idea。 You didn’t do a great job of answering all my questions， I couldn‘t explain them to him。 Would you be willing to have dinner with us？” So I’m like， “Well， first of all， who is your fiancée？ And why are we caring so much what he thinks？” [LAUGHTER] So she said， “Well， his name is Barack Obama。” And this is 1991。 So he‘s fresh out of law school。 And she said， “He started his career before law school as a community organizer， and he really is worried that if I’m going from a law firm right into the fire—not even the frying pan， but the fire—in the Mayor‘s office， am I going to be prepared， and who’s gonna be looking out for me。 And so he wants to know and get to know that person。”
然后过了几天，我们又见面了，我说：“那你准备过来加入我们吗？”她说：“我还不确定。”接着又说：“我和我的未婚夫认真谈了下。他劝我不要加入，因为你基本上回答不出来我的问题，所以我也没法给他说清楚。你愿意来和我们吃顿晚饭吗？”然后我说：“呃，那你先告诉我你的未婚夫是？为什么我们要如此在乎他的意见呢？”[笑] 然后她说：“他叫巴拉克·奥巴马。”这是1991年的事。那时他刚从法学院毕业。（注：奥巴马是哈佛大学法学院的优等博士毕业生）。她说：“他去法学院之前，一直在从事社区组织者的工作，他真的很担心如果我从律所跳槽去政界前线（“火海”）——甚至都不是第二线（“煎锅”）——而是前线，去市长的办公室，那我是不是准备好了？还有谁是我的上级？所以他就想知道并了解一下这个人。
And so we had dinner， and it was the most extraordinary dinner， because normally， when people—you meet people， they say， “Well， where are you from？” And I always say， “Chicago。 I grow up here。” And he says， “Is this where you were born？” And I always hesitate， because then， you know， I say Iran and you get this reaction， and people go， “Oh my god， what were you doing there？” And instead of doing that， he kind of leaned in and he said， “Well， tell me why。” He was curious。 And he really got me to open up and we talked about what we learned with me spending formative time in Iran， and him in Indonesia， and the perspective it gave us on the world and the United States。 And we concluded a few things in common that really， I think， provided the foundation of our friendship。
所以我们就吃了顿饭，那顿饭是最为不凡的一次经历，因为一般来说，当人们——你去见一些人，他们会问：“你是哪里人啊？”我通常会说：“芝加哥，我在那里长大。”但是他问我：“你是在那里（伊朗）出生的吗？”我总是会犹豫一下，因为我生于伊朗，通常人们的反应就是，“哦，天哪，你在伊朗做什么？”（注：瓦莱丽出生于伊朗，父母是美国人，父亲在伊朗开一所儿童医院。瓦莱丽5岁一家迁往伦敦，一年后来到芝加哥。）但他没有这样，他反而向前靠过来，说：“那讲讲你的故事吧。”他很感兴趣。而且他真的让你能畅谈心扉，我们谈到了我在伊朗性格塑造时期的生活，他谈了他在印尼的生活，以及这些经历对我们各自世界观的影响还有对美国的看法。（注：奥巴马小时候随母亲到印尼住过一段时间，当时继父Lolo Soetoro是印尼人。）我们得出了一些相似的结论，我认为这些共同的世界观构筑了我们之间的友谊的基础。
One， that we feel we can walk in a room and talk to anybody。 Because as kids， we were used to talking to people from all over the world。 And who spoke different languages， and you could still figure out how to play， even if you didn‘t share a common language。 The second thing we learned is that—to appreciate the United States in a way that people who have only lived here might not。 So everything from the water we drink to the food that we eat， to our civil liberties and rights and privileges of free speech， are not shared the world over。 And when you live in a country that doesn’t have many of those benefits， you appreciate them a little bit more when you do。
首先，我们觉得我们能走进一间房间和任何人攀谈。因为在孩童时期，我们就习惯了和来自世界各地的人交谈，他们说着不同的语言，但我们仍然能玩到一起，尽管我们语言不通。再就是，我们还学到了——欣赏美国，我们所欣赏的恰恰是只在美国本土长大的人所忽略的。很多事，包括我们喝的、吃的、公民自由、权利、自由言论的特权，并没有在全世界得到普及。而当你生活在一个大部分这些福祉都不存在的国家时，你就比享有它们的人要更珍视这些福祉。
And then the final thing we learned was that the United States is the greatest country on earth。 It is not the only country on earth。 And that you‘re gonna learn a great deal outside of our shores， if you’re open and you listen。 And we talked about that conversation a lot over the years and it really formulated our bond。 And then similarly， Michelle Robinson and I talked about our parents。 We were both lucky to have parents who loved each other and were these supportive， nurturing role models and embraced our sense of adventure， and taught us how to be unselfish in our love。 And so that was my bond with her。
最后还有一点，就是美国是目前地球上最伟大的国家。它不是唯一的国家，你会从美国海岸线以外的其他国家学到很多，只要你抱着开放的态度去了解。之后的多年里我们时常提起那次谈话，算是我们之间的羁绊之源。同样的，米歇尔·罗宾逊和我也会谈到我们的父母。我们很幸运，父母相爱，认真地鼓励我们，养育我们，也支持我们大胆的想法。还教会我们如何无私地爱。那是我和米歇尔之间的羁绊。
特别鸣谢Leon的英翻中以及字幕制作
向杨的微博：向杨Alan
微信公众号：xy88chicago
本文作者系新浪国际旗下“地球日报”自媒体联盟成员，授权稿件，转载需获原作者许可。文章言论不代表新浪观点。
