世界厕所组织创始人沈锐华
在第9个世界厕所日，我们和世界厕所组织创始人沈锐华聊了聊，听听他是如何实现自己“安得厕所千万间”的愿景。
图源：Jack Sim
以下为对话全文：
为何选择关注厕所？
Why are you so concerned with toilet hygiene?
因为一个人一平生，就是要找一件被忽略的事情来解决。厕所卫浴文化的问题是全世界忽略了好久了，累积的问题特别大，有20亿的人都没有厕所，所以我觉得这个非常有意义。因为没有人会捐款去协助解决这个问题，那我就把他搬上舞台了
During our life journey, we should devote ourselves to solving a problem people disregard. Global toilet hygiene has been ignored for quite a long time. As a result, the problem gets increasingly serious. Today, two billion people don't have access to toilets. I believe that greater toilet sanitation brings tremendous impact. Few people donate to solve the problem for its low publicity, so I volunteer to make it a public topic.
您印象中最不可思议的厕所和如厕方式是什么
Have you seen any form of toilet or way of toilet-using you could hardly believe?
很多人连厕所都没有，而且他们觉得很正常，他们就在河边、在火车、路边，或者大庭广众的这种草堆后面（方便）。这些我觉得真的是想象不出，等到我遇到了，我才发现这是个很大的问题。
A lot of people don't even have access to the toilets, and they take such things for granted. They just defecate by the river, the train or right behind a haystack in public spaces. I couldn’t even imagine such scenarios until I saw that in person. Then I realized it’s a very serious problem.
您觉得人们谈论厕所会有心理负担吗？
Do you think people are psychologically burdened to talk about toilets?
我发现，如果你用正式化的宣传这个话题，会很尴尬。如果我用幽默的做法，这个（传播）速度就特别快。好像我这个背景就是一个詹姆斯·邦德，拿着枪然后就到处去给人家一种幽默的感觉，他就不觉得尴尬。那每个人都是有自己的厕所故事，尤其是旅游厕所这些问题。所以当他们看到媒体在报道，他们就觉得自己也可以讲了这个境界。
I found that when propagating toilet hygiene in a formal way, people find it very awkward to say it openly. However, if I advocate it in a humorous way, it gets recognized incredibly fast. Just like the background picture, I was portraying James Bond, holding a gun, creating a sense of humor, then the ideas behind can be more readily accepted. In this case, toilet hygiene will see greater popularity. Well, everyone has their own stories of toilets-using, in particular, their stories when traveling. When seeing more such news, the toilet is no longer a taboo topic. That’s how we made all the breakthroughs.
您在一次达沃斯论坛遇到了WTO的负责人，当时和他说了什么？
What did you say to the head of WTO when you met him in the Davos Forum?
当时我设立了世界厕所组织呢，我是希望他会来告我，然后厕所（问题）就会搬上舞台嘛。可是他也没有告我。我在世界经济论坛的达沃斯峰会上，我就遇到他（世贸组织总干事）。我去跟他讲，我是世界厕所组织，他（世贸组织总干事）的名字叫帕斯卡尔·拉米（时任世贸组织总干事），这个拉米先生就跟我讲，我认识你，你是比较有行动的WTO，我们的（WTO）还在停顿。
At that time, I just founded the World Toilet Organization, WTO whose acronym is the same as that of World Trade Organization. I wished this world-known WTO may suit me for the name use, so our organization could receive more attention. But sadly, they didn’t complain about it at all. So when I met the head of WTO in Davos Forum, I told him I'm the head of the World Toilet Organization. Pascal Lamy, Then Director-General of the World Trade Organization, told me that, ``I already knew you, your “WTO” is more action-oriented. WTO Unlike us, we should act faster and be more effective.
被人嘲笑和不理解的时候，您会怎么应对？
How would you deal with people’s ridicules and misunderstandings?
开始就了解到，要做这个工作就一定会有人来笑我。可是当他们笑我的时候，他们其实是在听我讲的事情。所以他们笑，就是等于已经吸引到他们的关注。这是好事不是坏事。这个脸皮就变成特别厚了嘛，所以就不会有这种挣扎，没有这种问题。新闻讲得好，讲得不好，全部都是成功。因为他也注意了，他就会自己打开他的境界，他就会去跟别人讨论。
I knew that, from the very beginning, people would mock me for my work. However, I realized that when people laughed at me, they were actually listening to what I advocated. So I don’t care about their ridicule, as long as they paid attention to what I said. People's ridicules are a purely good thing. As you become thick-skinned or pachyderm, you won’t be hurt emotionally, or feel frustrated. The news, either good or bad, is simply a testimony of our success. When people see such news, they would be more open-minded and wouldn't be ashamed of openly discussing toilets.
所以我觉得这个工作不是说困难了，我们去做某些事情，如果没有高难度是做不了大事嘛。开始的时候就是一直在想怎样解决什么问题，遇到的做不成的（事情）不算，只是成功的才算。所以有这种阿Q精神就不会有什么矛盾。
I don’t see my job as a difficult task. The challenges you encountered exactly prove that you are climbing high. At the beginning, the only thing in mind was how to improve global sanitation. I won’t be discouraged when encountering setbacks, but I feel proud of all my accomplishments. Thanks to the Ah Q spirit——spiritual victory, I won’t be in pain.
社交媒体新时代下，您觉得推广厕所革命变难还是变容易 了？
In the new era of social media, is the toilet revolution harder or easier?
这个更好了。因为我开始的时候，社交媒体是很少的。当时都是依赖这个正面的媒体嘛。现在这个社交媒体发挥得特别快，速度特别快。所以我们就要依赖舞蹈表演，这些可以吸引到很多年轻人。所以这个创意可以一直在发挥（作用）。而且我了解另外一点就是，我学到如果你要改变什么事情呢，用时尚（的方法），它的速度比较快。如果你用正面的，政府官方的去教导，可能有些人还听不进去。如果你用对了计策，你用文化、用潮流的做法，就好像服装潮流、发型潮流、音乐潮流，你用潮流去做，我看了推荐的特别快。
My answer is the positive one. When I launched the reform 20 years ago, social media hadn't been proposed yet. By then, the state media dominates. But now, the social media spread information in an incredibly quick and effective way. We must rely on dancing, performance to enlarge our audience, in particular, more young people. Such original propagation forms can disseminate the ideas very fast, and bring far-reaching impact to our society. Another thing I learned is that If you want to make a change, do it in a fashionable way, which spreads even faster. If you conduct serious government teachings, some people may reject what you said instantly. You need to change the methods, and cater to the fashion or pop culture, such as the fashion trend, popular hair style and music. With the fashionable elements combined, our campaign gets quickly promoted in social media.
有人说，社交媒体上的口号转化成实际行动后效果不佳，您怎么理解呢？
Some say the slogans on social media fail to produce desired results after it was converted to actions. How do you see such points of views?
对他们没有利益的事情他们就不干, 只是用口头说几句好听的。在普遍老百姓（看来），这个问题也是一样，没有看到好处就不会有动力。
People refuse to go back home empty-handed, but they are good at shouting slogans. The ordinary people think the same way. If they can't see any personal gains or interest, they won’t be inspired to make contributions.
如果全世界的厕所问题都解决了，您接下来会做什么？
If the issue of toilet hygiene gets addressed globally, what's your next step?
现在我已经在做扶贫(相关)的事情，厕所跟扶贫两样一起做。因为我现在都64岁了，如果不加速度去做一些更大更多的事情，就浪费这个时间了。因为我在我的手机里面计算，（如果）我在80岁就结束，我还有5600日。这是一种预算而不是一定会发生的。所以就觉得很着急，要做多的一些贡献。在最后一天我会跟自己讲，我没有浪费这个旅途。
I have started to work on poverty alleviation as I promote global sanitation with clean toilets. I'm 64 years old. If I don’t act faster to do something bigger to address more issues, I think it’s a waste of time. I’m calculating my remaining days on my phone. Suppose I die at the age of 80, I only have 5600 days left. Of course, it’s just a prediction. It won’t necessarily happen. Every time I realize that I may only have 5600 days left, I feel very anxious. I wish to make more contributions to society. I wish that at the end of my life, my life journey is worthwhile and meaningful.
在您看来，如何判断一件事是否有意义呢？
How do you tell if something is meaningful?
如果什么问题被忽略，而且有很多人在受苦，那这个问题就很有意义。你不要管它难度多么高，那都不重要的，要做就是要做到成功。因为很多人呢，他觉得一生就是追求功名富贵。有了功名富贵大家就会表扬，就会鼓掌对吗？我觉得他们的这些表扬也没有用，最有用就是真正地看到其他人可以享受更好的生活，那这个就是真正的贡献了，有没有人知道其实是不重要的。
If there is an issue often neglected, and a lot of people suffer from it, that is a meaningful job. Stop worrying about its difficulties, that doesn’t really matter. The only thing that matters is to address this issue. For many people, the only things they care about are fame and wealth. With fame and wealth, they may win people's applause. But I don’t think such applause matters. The applause only matters when you see other people enjoy a better life because of your dedication.
That should be meaningful contributions. It doesn’t really matter if you can harvest fame along the process.
